Here's the misunderstanding that makes rational people atheist and irrational people "Westburro-Baptist-Church"-ish:
God is not a physical, human being. God is only described as a human being as a method for people to understand the whole concept.
What we call "God" is pretty much the same thing as "Mother Nature", "The Force" from Star Wars, or "Spiritual Energy".
"God" is the force that holds everything together, controls nature, causes evolution. It's a force of unity, and a force of change.
God is and has always been, simply the term for what people cannot explain. Imagine 8000 years ago, there is almost no scientific knowledge, imagine what they would make of the sun going up and down. It's very easy to see how this would lead someone to assume a divine guiding hand. However, as our race becomes more and more aware, "god" exists in less and less of the things we see around us. Simply because we have actual scientific answers as to why things work, like why the sun goes up and down.
quote:Originally posted by Jonny Richey Now in my opinion, a true atheist is someone who believes everything in the universe was just thrown together by chance, with no guiding force. Evolution is basically a guiding force; therefore, a true atheist cannot believe in evolution, or any of the forces of nature.
I'm not going to lie, this is probably the most ridiculous utterance in the thread yet. Science tries to understand nature and what drives things like evolution. We have an extremely clear understanding of what drives evolution, it's not some "mystical guiding force" that we can't comprehend. A "true atheist" is someone who doesn't believe in the existence of a deity, and therefore the intervention of a deity. It doesn't mean that they don't think there can be things that we don't yet understand...
Now in my opinion, a true atheist is someone who believes everything in the universe was just thrown together by chance, with no guiding force. Evolution is basically a guiding force; therefore, a true atheist cannot believe in evolution, or any of the forces of nature.
You are the definition of the failed Illinois education system.
You know that when people publish an article they aren't just sitting down one day and writing it because they think it sounds nice right? It requires months (or years) of data collection, it has to pass peer review, etc...
I am an Athiest, and unfortunately, due to recent events, I cannot go tow ashing D.C. and be away from my family. As for my religious background, I was born and raised in a Catholic family, and went to a private school for 4 years, were I was repeated abused both verbally and physically. This was because I asked questions that were "heathen-like and did not show that this child will be a healthy adult". From the very start, my interest in science and technology made me question what I was being taught. Seeing as I was a very curious child, the teachers attempted to "fix" me. Fast forward to my Middle and high school years, and I was more open and vocal of what I thought and believed in. This caused my family to become withdrawn from me and some wouldn't even acknowledge that I was a real person.
Long story short, I was disowned by my parents and forced to join the military. after a 5 year run in Afghanistan, I saw more of the atrocities religion put on the people. After my retirement because I was severely wounded, I became a stout advocate of the space program and exploration of space.
Sorry I'm getting a bit carried away, but that's how I came to be an atheist. Scientific interest and abuse turned me away from all religion.
Don't be sorry, I am sorry to hear that. But it's interesting to hear these stories. It's also sad to hear and unfortunately all too common, seemingly most common coming from Americans, which is one of the saddest things about it. That such a developed nation, could still harbour the kind of people who have the mindset of the people you mentioned.
I'd never really come across this kind of story before I started discussing this kind of thing online, because it never seems to happen that way where I was born. I was fortunate in that respect, not to be born into a culture of indoctrination. Not that my parents weren't religious, mind. My dad certainly was a very religious person, right up until he died. And my mom still is to this day, she's the headteacher at a Church of England school. But I never felt any of this was indoctrinated or oppressed upon me (except odd church visits at Crimbo )
quote:Originally posted by bandman232 I saw more of the atrocities religion put on the people.
There is a grad student here who enrolled in the PhD program so he could extend his student visa. He's from some tiny latin american country and he's convinced they'll kill him because he's gay when he's forced to go back. I think he tried to get asylum but the government thinks he's full of it.
One of the paleontology students here were disowned by their families because of what they study.
Also it's really ****ing inappropriate when the jesus assholes stand outside the science buildings (which bring in 3/4 of the grant money my university gets) and hand out flyers to students saying everything in class is bullpoop and I have to spend 45 minutes of my time debunking the card. Then I get "lecture was too long one day" on my evaluations.
Also the crap around the cancer vaccine for women was absolutely digusting. Because of what Michelle Bachmann and the other GOP idiots said, some women are probably going to die in the future because their parents chose to listen to outright undfounded lies.
I keep hearing from various christians that they're "different" and against that sort of thing, but nobody ever does a ****ing thing and sweeps all of gigantic problems they're causing under the rug like nothing is happening.
"Careful man, there's a beverage here!"
Edited by - Coasterkidmwm on 12/02/2011 11:41:50 AM
quote:Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm Because of what Michelle Bachmann and the other GOP idiots said...
I've made the decision that if any of those sociopaths get elected, I'm moving to Canada.
I feel really sorry for American atheists for political reasons. I can't imagine what it would be like to live in a country where it seems as though it's almost a requirement that you are openly OTT religious to get into a position of power. With polls suggesting that Atheists are the least trusted minority group in American society. Something that, to me, seems preposterous. I feel that it's bad enough here, in the UK, but what some of you guys seem to have to put up with... I just couldn't stick it.
Even living in the UK (45% atheist), I have often pondered the idea of moving to one of the Scandinavian countries, like Sweden or Norway. Not only are these among the greatest countries in the world (highest paid populous on average, murder rates, crime rates, life expectancy, scenery, etc.), but they are the countries with the highest atheist percentages, as much as 85% atheist. If you ever wanted to see how a truly secular nation operates, these countries are the best examples.
I don't believe in anything and I don't feel oppressed. But then again I don't wear it on my sleeve as it's nobody's business but my own which is what everyone in the ****ing world is getting wrong. Believe in god or not, I don't care. What I WILL preach is indifference. Caring too much about other peoples poop is what leads to every goddamn problem we have in the world. If everyone just minded their business and looked at the ground all would be well.
It's a very good thing that you don't feel oppressed in any way, Freddie. The problem is, especially in a country like the USA, religions still play a large role in how things are governed and many people can feel very oppressed. This video really jumps to mind:
This is the kind of dangerous mindset that it is shown religion can directly lead to. This woman is so indoctrinated with her respective religion, that she is showing genuine fear that her child isn't of exactly the same line of thought. She is literally interpreting religion and believes her child will burn in hell for ever, she's scared of this and wants to avoid it in what her indoctination leads her to believe is the right way. As a result, her son is suffering. Remember, while you may not feel oppressed, others are suffering. And, for me, while this kind of thing is going on, I will always be anti-theism and won't just "mind my own business". I know I probably can't directly help people like this, but I certainly wish I could, so to think that anyone would just ignore this, as you are suggesting, seems awful to me.
quote:Originally posted by Freddie
If everyone just minded their business and looked at the ground all would be well.
I can't say that I can agree with this. Speaking metaphorically, using your sentence; if everyone were to walk around looking at the ground, they'd often walk right into a lamp post. Quite massively on the contrary, if we all took a greater interest in what everyone else was doing, we could all very much learn from eachother. This is the only way society truly progresses, living with knowledge of those around us means that you understand their needs as well as you'd hope they understand yours.
Be aware that what you are promoting, is wilful ignorance. You mustn't honestly believe that could be a good way to live life, could you?
The funny thing is that most denominations preach things about how God hates gays or people who drink alcohol go to hell (even though Jesus drank wine, but whatevs lol). I never understood any of this. If God really is loving, why would he send guys who like other guys NOT NECESSARILY BY CHOICE to hell? That's ridiculous lol. I mean, an all-loving guy probably wouldn't send ANYONE to hell...even the murderers. Those terrible people would probably change their views in heaven anyway.
But yeah, the more I think of it, the more I find myself pretty much agnostic. If God is there, I'll find out later. If he sends me to hell, well, so much for an all-loving God. Either way, my parents are religious but like Gouldy's they probably won't mind me not being very religious. I mean, it could be either way. Evolution is definitely certain to have happened...there's not much you could argue about that. Heck, God probably didn't help with evolution at all, which is fine. What still wows me though is the fact that life really exists. Life is just so damn complex...it's quite magical. That, and just thinking about things in the universe and how it didn't really "start" (only started from a Big Bang theoretically from another universe's galactic black hole or something of the like, etc etc too long to explain). Those are the only things that I feel where a God may exist.
All in all, nobody truly knows. If you are very religious, definitely fine by me. I personally don't feel God doing things around me...if you do, fine. Just don't get in the way of things and hate people. If God really is all-loving, he would actually want something different of us as people. He wouldn't want people who hate others that don't behave the same. I mean really, what is so bad about guys liking other guys? Overall, WTF?
Anyway, I'll keep being a good person. If God doesn't like that, so be it.
EDIT: Never going to be a full-fledged atheist though...that's just "revenge" in a way. Both sides are ****ish anyway.
Anyway, I'll keep being a good person. If God doesn't like that, so be it.
There's a lot of truth in that sentence, in the sense that the Judeo-Christian god, doesn't actually care whether you are a good person or not. What the bible actually says is that you can pretty much do whatever the heck you like, so long as you repent and tell Jesus you love him. You could be a paedophile and murder children and this god wouldn't give a crap, so long as you stoke his ego. The bible itself never actually teachers any kind of morality. It was when I first read the bible that I first began to tend towards atheism, thanks to realising things such as this.
quote:Originally posted by AJClarke0912 Never going to be a full-fledged atheist though...that's just "revenge" in a way. Both sides are ****ish anyway.
What an horrendous sweeping statement. There are ****s on both sides, for sure, but that doesn't mean every "full-fledged" atheist is a ****, nor every "full-fledged" theist. Real, for example, is a theist, and he isn't in the slightest a "****"... Unless you mean something slightly different by "full-fledged"?
I was thinking of "full-fledged" more as the flaming time. Banter towards each other and telling each other what to do isn't cool.
The other point I forgot to make was the acknowledgement of existence of God. Again, some denominations talk about how if you don't think God exists, hell ensues, blah blah. But again, if I were a father and I was not visible or sensible really at all and my "children" don't really know if I exist or think that I exist, I don't hate them. I would still love them, and "in the end" in heaven, they would see the truth. Just another thing that doesn't make sense.
Either way, I'm just all "whatevs". Whatever happens, happens.
The other point I forgot to make was the acknowledgement of existence of God. Again, some denominations talk about how if you don't think God exists, hell ensues, blah blah. But again, if I were a father and I was not visible or sensible really at all and my "children" don't really know if I exist or think that I exist, I don't hate them. I would still love them, and "in the end" in heaven, they would see the truth. Just another thing that doesn't make sense.
All perfectly reasonable logic, all leading to a good question; why would a god even bother with the bit before death? Why, if he truly loved his creation, would he not just set us up in heaven to begin with?
Just to pick up on something you said earlier though, you said;
"But yeah, the more I think of it, the more I find myself pretty much agnostic. If God is there, I'll find out later."
I think there is a lot of confusion about the word Agnostic. By the definition of the words "Atheist" and "Theist", you are one or the other, there isn't a middle ground that shares nothing or either of those words. Reading through what you have said, you are most certainly an Agnostic Atheist (not that I think you personally would despute this, reading your comments). Unless someone's position is "I believe these is a god", then they are atheist. If a person says "there could be a god, but I don't know", that is still Atheism, but I fear most people in this postion would simply refer to themselves as "Agnostic" and claim somekind of moral high ground. Which is one thing that can get frustrating when trying to hold a decent debate
I don't believe in anything and I don't feel oppressed. But then again I don't wear it on my sleeve as it's nobody's business but my own which is what everyone in the ****ing world is getting wrong. Believe in god or not, I don't care. What I WILL preach is indifference. Caring too much about other peoples poop is what leads to every goddamn problem we have in the world. If everyone just minded their business and looked at the ground all would be well.
I completely disagree with you. I think you should stand for what you believe in, AS LONG as you're not incriminated on others person rights. Being indifferent about everything is so pointless to me. you should be willing to stand on your feet and fight. My point being, if people didn't stand for what they believed we wouldn't be getting very far as a nation..
As for the original point of this topic, I think it would be great to go to the rally but unfortunately it is impossible for myself.. College and my job take priority.
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This is my most hated theist argument against atheism.
The insinuation is that because these people were atheist, they commited atrocities. When in truth, they were all the centre of their own religions. Their religions weren't centred around a deity though, in almost all of those cases THEY themselves were the deity and they were worshipped. There is no logical path that would lead a person to kill in "the name of not believing in a deity". Whereas, a person could drawn the logical conclusion of genocide from religious texts, were they to read them literally.
I am surprised Hitler wasn't on that list, to be fair, it was quite refreshing to not see his name. Most Theists tend to try and claim Hitler was an atheist.
gouldy.. i too am an atheist, i'm just pointing out that atrocities have been commited in the name of atheism as well as religion ..
I know you are.
No atrocities have been commited in "the name of atheism", as refuted above. Evil happens whether people are atheist or thesits, bad people will always do bad things, but for good people to do bad things, oft takes religion.
Well, i'm a Christian, so I read this topic and lol. You guys provide a lot of ways that god doesn't exist. But I could give some reasons why he does exist and you guys still wouldn't believe. Think of this topic in reverse, say I was going to a mission trip in the UK, then made a topic before I went asking if anyone would want to be a part of that.
quote:Originally posted by gouldy
quote:Originally posted by AJClarke0912
Anyway, I'll keep being a good person. If God doesn't like that, so be it.
You could be a paedophile and murder children and this god wouldn't give a crap, so long as you stoke his ego. The bible itself never actually teachers any kind of morality.
Are you kidding lol? I'm sure you would go to hell if you killed kids and were a pedophile. God doesn't decide weather you go to heaven or hell from your goods and bads. And sure, I've had people ask "why do you think god created you? What was the purpose?" And I could go on talking about this, but I guess this is just my contribution to the topic. I thought it was just stupid for only atheists and agnostics to continue a conversation so long about their beliefs with no one even saying they were wrong (and yes, even if it were Christians babbling about their beliefs I would find it rather stupid). I wanted to keep myself out of this conversation, but yeah, this is my contribution and junk. This is also just what I believe. In the end though guys, the point to it all? To have ***, because if we didn't have *** there would be no life
Edited by - RideWarriorNation on 12/02/2011 6:17:11 PM
God doesn't decide weather you go to heaven or hell from your goods and bads.
I know, that's what I said... It doesn't come down to whether or not you have been a good person during your life, it comes down to whether or not you've stroked his ego enough during your life. This is repeated again and again throughout the bible. Which is exactly why, if you read what the bible says, you can literally get away with anything you want, so long as you then say Jesus has nice hair.
quote:Originally posted by RideWarriorNation
I thought it was just stupid for only atheists and agnostics to continue a conversation so long about their beliefs with no one even saying they were wrong
Oh no, God forbid (excuse the phrase) likeminded people would like to hold dicussions about their ideas. That would be entirely retarded.
quote:Originally posted by RideWarriorNation
(and yes, even if it were Christians babbling about their beliefs I would find it rather stupid).
isnt the general message of both beliefs just to live life to the fullest, be a good person and do anything you want as long as it doesnt interfere with others? maybe this is how this topic connects to coasters... all i see here is an argument(no longer a debate with the "contributions" to this post) and im pretty sure that once again i will be kicked out of this with a couple of people asserting their authority over theists and vice versa so they may continue this fine argument.
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 01:16:54 AM
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