I thought it was just stupid for only atheists and agnostics to continue a conversation so long about their beliefs with no one even saying they were wrong
Oh no, God forbid (excuse the phrase) likeminded people would like to hold dicussions about their ideas. That would be entirely retarded. Well, I was kind of going toward like minded people discussing their idea's on a rollercoaster forum -.-
quote:Originally posted by RideWarriorNation
(and yes, even if it were Christians babbling about their beliefs I would find it rather stupid).
You mean, church? And this is why I didn't want to make a acknowledge this thread. But Ok, sure lol. I find it stupid that someone would waste their time going to a church every sunday, but how else would Christianity spread? Like I said, it all matters if you would want to go to church on sunday. And depending on your beliefs it may not be stupid.(why I never go to church on sundays lol).
isnt the general message of both beliefs just to live life to the fullest, be a good person and do anything you want as long as it doesnt interfere with others? maybe this is how this topic connects to coasters... all i see here is an argument(no longer a debate with the "contributions" to this post) and im pretty sure that once again i will be kicked out of this with a couple of people asserting their authority over theists and vice versa so they may continue this fine argument.
No one is being kicked out of anything, if there is a discussion and someone makes a claim, the point of the discussion is that others can refute or agree with that persons claims, with explained reasoning.
Why is there this fundamental misunderstanding that Atheism is a belief system of some kind? You can believe whatever you want about how to live your life, outside of the term "Atheism". The word "Atheist" just refers to the fact that during your life, whatever belief system or moral values you choose to take, you do so without believing in the existance of a god.
It could also be refuted, don't you think, that the message of any religion with an afterlife - that the message is definitely not to live this life to the fullest. Not when this tiny little insignificant period of time is nothing in comparison to the supposed eternal life after your death...
quote:Originally posted by RideWarriorNation
Well, I was kind of going toward like minded people discussing their idea's on a rollercoaster forum -.-
In the "off topic discussion" part of the "off topic board" of a rollercoaster forum...
Sometimes i wonder what happens after death...something happens before youre born, and on occasion when certain things happen you recall them from a dream or something. Is it a coincidence or is your brain remembering something? God is there as a supervisor more than he is an idol, when i do wrong i remember that the ultimate stalker is watching my every move. Like having your friend stand behind you while you type random nerdy and fallacious lectures like this.
Sometimes i wonder what happens after death...something happens before youre born, and on occasion when certain things happen you recall them from a dream or something. Is it a coincidence or is your brain remembering something? God is there as a supervisor more than he is an idol, when i do wrong i remember that the ultimate stalker is watching my every move. Like having your friend stand behind you while you type random nerdy and fallacious lectures like this.
You're going into psychology dude, that has to do with your subconscious and unconscious mind.
Edited by - RideWarriorNation on 12/02/2011 8:13:39 PM
Although no one can "know" what happens after death, the way life works could lead us to draw acceptable conclusions.
I think everyone would agree as to what happens to your physical body, because it's entirely observable - the body rots and is returned to the earth, in a fashion, over a period of time. The nutrients of which is to be used again by vegetation surrounding the area, drawn from the ground and via the creatures that feed on the body. That bit is simple science.
It's the "spirit" of a person that people wonder what happens with, and without any scientific evidence, it's not hard to see why people would have many varying hypothesis as to what happens to a person's "spirit". Here is where the acceptable conclusions I spoke of come in. While we're alive, our conciousness is infact just electrical signals caused by chemical reactions interpreted by the synapses in our brains. When the brain dies, these chemical reactions and electrical signals obviously cease, thus ending our conciousness (or what spiritual people would refer to as our Spirit). While, like I say, no one can know what happens when we die, simple scientific knowledge concludes that we do, indeed, simply end/cease to be.
I can understand fully why people might have issue with that, as the human mind is a feeble thing and is genuinely incapable of understanding "nothingness". When thinking about it, mosrt people probably think of pure blackness, or something similar. With our inability to comprehend "nothingness", it's very easy to see how that would lead to the idea of people having a spirit that carries on eternally.
My own personal way to look at it is; I don't remember being bothered by the fact that I wasn't alive, before I was born, so I can't imagine I shall care once I have died, either.
I know I'm rambling, but I like to talk, so you'll have to deal with it
Although no one can "know" what happens after death, the way life works could lead us to draw acceptable conclusions.
I think everyone would agree as to what happens to your physical body, because it's entirely observable - the body rots and is returned to the earth, in a fashion, over a period of time. The nutrients of which is to be used again by vegetation surrounding the area, drawn from the ground and via the creatures that feed on the body. That bit is simple science.
It's the "spirit" of a person that people wonder what happens with, and without any scientific evidence, it's not hard to see why people would have many varying hypothesis as to what happens to a person's "spirit". Here is where the acceptable conclusions I spoke of come in. While we're alive, our conciousness is infact just electrical signals caused by chemical reactions interpreted by the synapses in our brains. When the brain dies, these chemical reactions and electrical signals obviously cease, thus ending our conciousness (or what spiritual people would refer to as our Spirit). While, like I say, no one can know what happens when we die, simple scientific knowledge concludes that we do, indeed, simply end/cease to be.
I can understand fully why people might have issue with that, as the human mind is a feeble thing and is genuinely incapable of understanding "nothingness". When thinking about it, mosrt people probably think of pure blackness, or something similar. With our inability to comprehend "nothingness", it's very easy to see how that would lead to the idea of people having a spirit that carries on eternally.
My own personal way to look at it is; I don't remember being bothered by the fact that I wasn't alive, before I was born, so I can't imagine I shall care once I have died, either.
I know I'm rambling, but I like to talk, so you'll have to deal with it
It's a very good thing that you don't feel oppressed in any way, Freddie. The problem is, especially in a country like the USA, religions still play a large role in how things are governed and many people can feel very oppressed. This video really jumps to mind:
This is the kind of dangerous mindset that it is shown religion can directly lead to. This woman is so indoctrinated with her respective religion, that she is showing genuine fear that her child isn't of exactly the same line of thought. She is literally interpreting religion and believes her child will burn in hell for ever, she's scared of this and wants to avoid it in what her indoctination leads her to believe is the right way. As a result, her son is suffering. Remember, while you may not feel oppressed, others are suffering. And, for me, while this kind of thing is going on, I will always be anti-theism and won't just "mind my own business". I know I probably can't directly help people like this, but I certainly wish I could, so to think that anyone would just ignore this, as you are suggesting, seems awful to me.
quote:Originally posted by Freddie
If everyone just minded their business and looked at the ground all would be well.
I can't say that I can agree with this. Speaking metaphorically, using your sentence; if everyone were to walk around looking at the ground, they'd often walk right into a lamp post. Quite massively on the contrary, if we all took a greater interest in what everyone else was doing, we could all very much learn from eachother. This is the only way society truly progresses, living with knowledge of those around us means that you understand their needs as well as you'd hope they understand yours.
Be aware that what you are promoting, is wilful ignorance. You mustn't honestly believe that could be a good way to live life, could you?
You're looking too short sighted. Had that mother not given a damn about whether her kid believed in God or not as she should have that scenario would not have existed. I know that might be unrealistic, and the kid in the video is most certainly oppressed, but think, if the mother just respected her kids right to believe whatever he wants that wouldn't have even been an issue.
We obviously aren't learning much from each other about this subject anymore other than people are vicious cunts who want everyone else to think the same way as them. I would say ignorance is bliss is a great alternative to that these days.
quote:I completely disagree with you. I think you should stand for what you believe in, AS LONG as you're not incriminated on others person rights. Being indifferent about everything is so pointless to me. you should be willing to stand on your feet and fight. My point being, if people didn't stand for what they believed we wouldn't be getting very far as a nation..
As for the original point of this topic, I think it would be great to go to the rally but unfortunately it is impossible for myself.. College and my job take priority.
But I don't really believe in anything. I have relatively no interest in the subject, short of being annoyed at those on either side who push their points to the point of being militant about it. I don't believe in anything nor do I care to and no one else should care about that because they are not me and my decisions don't affect them directly. I think wars in the name of religion (and more recently internet wars in the name of anti-religion) are sickening. Let people believe whatever they want to and move on. As far as progression ("My point being, if people didn't stand for what they believed we wouldn't be getting very far as a nation..") I fail to see how standing on either side and being outwardly vocal about such moves us forward in any way. You believe....ok.....you don't believe...great....now what? I just don't care and there are bigger, realer things to worry about.
Sometimes i wonder what happens after death...something happens before youre born...
Someone may have previously gone into a huge explanation of what I'm about to tell you, but this is for the tl;dr folks.
Your perception of reality is all based on your mind taking in information and processing it. Simple as that. The reason you think about what happens after death is because you're curious about what your conscious mind will experience. Same as pre-birth; you want to know what your conscious mind experienced. To put it bluntly - you don't experience anything. We know what happens physically before and after life but the conscious mind is not yet "activated" for lack of a better word before you're born and your mind is physically and consciously dead after you die. Plain and simple.
Name the religion! (trick, one of them ISN'T a religion! guess which one...)
"You'll spend eternity in hell if you're not nice and don't thank me for killing my own son in your name every sunday. Also, I expect you to believe everything I irrationally tell you without question, no matter how much 'evidence' or 'facts' you see disputing them as clear as day. Beating your salves is OK, as is prostitution (except it isn't) Homo***uality is evil."
"you should die if you don't worship who I worship without question. Moreover, you will go to hell if you don't Worship who I worship and you aren't nice to certain people who are only men that are high up on the social ladder. But murder is wrong. unless they don't worship me. then it's A+ for you. Gangrape is ok. Homo***uality is evil. "
"Murder is wrong, Any kind of Rape is wrong. Pretty much if it makes someone else unhappy, don't do it. On top of that, don't waste your lfie praising something that doesn't exist, that's retarded. Go adopt an orphan, make them feel happy. Something like that."
I cannot understand science, nor am I able to form a coherent and well rounded argument. Therefore; God.
Name the religion! (trick, one of them ISN'T a religion! guess which one...)
"You'll spend eternity in hell if you're not nice and don't thank me for killing my own son in your name every sunday. Also, I expect you to believe everything I irrationally tell you without question, no matter how much 'evidence' or 'facts' you see disputing them as clear as day. Beating your salves is OK, as is prostitution (except it isn't) Homo***uality is evil."
I'll take brain dead evangelists for 100, Alex.
quote:"you should die if you don't worship who I worship without question. Moreover, you will go to hell if you don't Worship who I worship and you aren't nice to certain people who are only men that are high up on the social ladder. But murder is wrong. unless they don't worship me. then it's A+ for you. Gangrape is ok. Homo***uality is evil. "
Are these the brainwashed scientologists I've heard so much about?
quote:"Murder is wrong, Any kind of Rape is wrong. Pretty much if it makes someone else unhappy, don't do it. On top of that, don't waste your lfie praising something that doesn't exist, that's retarded. Go adopt an orphan, make them feel happy. Something like that."
I’m Christian with my own point of view. The comments made by atheists are actually 100% spot on like the proof that evolution did happen and the theory of the big bang being the most logical explanation for everything, matter, time and energy.
Traditional Christians has this magnificent fear of dying and not existing anymore which fuels their belief no matter what argument is used to prove against it. Religion is a major cause of unnecessary conflict. The Bible IMO is very symbolic even the first chapter doesn’t make sense talking of day and night before there even was light WTF? It is designed to be a guideline to establish a reference point relative to what is good and bad. Yes times are changing and the law is still enforced too much from a Christian point of view. Governmental control drives me nuts but not only due to this…
All the science in the world unfortunately can’t explain what happened 2 seconds before the big explosion why did nothing turn into a systematic flow of perfectly balanced amount of matter energy and time. Something must have happened or cause an instability in a way. Otherwise it would just have remained nothing. Not even time would exist. Even the theory’s that suggest multiple universes (with their own times and range of dimensions) that each formed out of this cosmic foam triggered the existence of ours. What created the foam? Why is the instability there? Stuff like that is what keeps me living and atheists will need to prove that before I’ll change my point of view to not believing in a power greater than the universe, foam or whatever you want to call it. Something that had to exist for eternity and still will (in your point of view of time off course).
But I don't really believe in anything. I have relatively no interest in the subject, short of being annoyed at those on either side who push their points to the point of being militant about it. I don't believe in anything nor do I care to and no one else should care about that because they are not me and my decisions don't affect them directly. I think wars in the name of religion (and more recently internet wars in the name of anti-religion) are sickening. Let people believe whatever they want to and move on. As far as progression ("My point being, if people didn't stand for what they believed we wouldn't be getting very far as a nation..") I fail to see how standing on either side and being outwardly vocal about such moves us forward in any way. You believe....ok.....you don't believe...great....now what? I just don't care and there are bigger, realer things to worry about.
I was looking a little to broadly I think. I should have been more clear about it. When it comes to religion, I'm completely with you. I'm not looking to get into verbal arguments about it. And there is nothing wrong with believing in nothing. I meant more about ***ual orientation. I think because i saw that in an earlier post of yours. For religion, I don't believe in shout matches about it. But With ***ual orientation, if no one stood up and "cared" about it, we wouldn't have gotten to where we are with human rights. You get what I mean right?
All the science in the world unfortunately can’t explain what happened 2 seconds before the big explosion why did nothing turn into a systematic flow of perfectly balanced amount of matter energy and time. Something must have happened or cause an instability in a way. Otherwise it would just have remained nothing. Not even time would exist. Even the theory’s that suggest multiple universes (with their own times and range of dimensions) that each formed out of this cosmic foam triggered the existence of ours. What created the foam? Why is the instability there? Stuff like that is what keeps me living and atheists will need to prove that before I’ll change my point of view to not believing in a power greater than the universe, foam or whatever you want to call it. Something that had to exist for eternity and still will (in your point of view of time off course).
Just because we don't know what happened before the big bang, why should that mean we automatically assume it must be a god. And even if it were a god, then the next logical question is; what was there before the god? Both of these questions cannot be answered, so why would you add the extra assumed step of there bing a god? This guy explains it a lot better than I ever could. If you don't want to watch the whole video, just watch from 1:25.
I have all the time in the world for Carl Sagan.
The point being, we don't have all the answers yet, maybe we never will. But to assume that it was a god, nay, not just a god, but a specific god of a specific religious text, is nigh on insanity. As a species, we will always be trying to answer the question of how we got here, and there may be a day that we can prove what happened when it all began, and why it all happened. The answer to the question could be that a higher power was involved. But to postulate that it definitely was your god, simply because science doesn't yet have the answers, is arrogance of the highest order.
quote:Originally posted by dj-dj
Something that had to exist for eternity and still will
Why add the extra assumed step of a god with this situation, either? If you say, it must be a god because there has to be something eternal, well then; why can't it just be the universe that is eternal? Maybe our universe is just forever expanding and then crushing back down to a singularity before exploding in another big bang, repeatedly over and over for eternity. There are literally an infinite number of possiblities, it is preposterous to assume, without knowledge, that any one of them is correct.
"Science is important because if you don't understand how the world works then everything is a mystery to you, and if everything is magical and mysterious then you really don't work on logic anymore and everything is about belief." - Joy Reidenberg, Brave New World with Stephen Hawking, 2011.
Ignorant - "1. Lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated. 2. Lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular: "ignorant of astronomy"." - Dictionary.com
If you don't work on logic and everything is about belief, you are really just saying you are ignorant to science and all of the logical explanations it provides. Science will forever increasingly provide more explanations based on hard facts about our nature, the world and the way we came into existence.
Religion will always be based on everything magical, mysterious and illogical. Whilst I don't feel sorry for religious people that have a belief and don't let it take over their life, I do feel sorry for those that dedicate their lives religion, as their efforts are futile.
Theist: Belief in a god Atheist: Neutral belief in a god ism: act, state, or theory of Atheism = The neutral act, state, or theory that there is a god so atheism technically is still a belief (though not a religion anymore to me)
But I don't really believe in anything. I have relatively no interest in the subject, short of being annoyed at those on either side who push their points to the point of being militant about it. I don't believe in anything nor do I care to and no one else should care about that because they are not me and my decisions don't affect them directly. I think wars in the name of religion (and more recently internet wars in the name of anti-religion) are sickening. Let people believe whatever they want to and move on. As far as progression ("My point being, if people didn't stand for what they believed we wouldn't be getting very far as a nation..") I fail to see how standing on either side and being outwardly vocal about such moves us forward in any way. You believe....ok.....you don't believe...great....now what? I just don't care and there are bigger, realer things to worry about.
I was looking a little to broadly I think. I should have been more clear about it. When it comes to religion, I'm completely with you. I'm not looking to get into verbal arguments about it. And there is nothing wrong with believing in nothing. I meant more about ***ual orientation. I think because i saw that in an earlier post of yours. For religion, I don't believe in shout matches about it. But With ***ual orientation, if no one stood up and "cared" about it, we wouldn't have gotten to where we are with human rights. You get what I mean right?
I'm sorry about not being very clear about it.
That's a whole can of worms I don't think I want to get into my position of. I mentioned in my first post that I think those who go on about their ***ual orientation are just as bad as those who go on about religion or lack thereof and I'll leave it at that. I am not anti-gay or anti-gay rights, however there is a degree of attention seeking with a good portion (of those I've talked to) that just goes hand in hand with those who do the same with religion. I think that's as tastefully as I can break it down.
Theist: Belief in a god Atheist: Neutral belief in a god ism: act, state, or theory of Atheism = The neutral act, state, or theory that there is a god so atheism technically is still a belief (though not a religion anymore to me)
Besides being completely wrong, I'm still at a loss as to what you're trying to say here.
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 7:10:44 PM
