Abortion!

Originally posted by riccoaster

I do not believe in abortions, I believe if you have an abortion you are killing a human that never had a chance to see the outside world I think that is very wrong.

I guess masterbation is mass murder then

Thank you, wersigobra.

okay, not meaning to add fuel to the fire, but I know this might...

And I do have serious conflicts between my belief that it wrong, and let's say what I might consider if my daughter was the victim of a rape.(please don't say that is a cliche')

My argument here would be more on the issue of "personal responsibility" vs. "personal choice". I hear people say continually that abortion is a choice; but no one ever talks about the choice of participating in the act that leads to the pregnancy in the first place. And whether we like it or not, our choices have consequences - good or bad - that we get to deal with.

This may be extreme over-simplification, but if more people would choose to "keep their pants zipped", abortion would not have to be as much of choice itself.

my thoughts as simply put as possible.

that being said...I thought the masturbation comment was hysterical.

Originally posted by dhh

but if more people would choose to "keep their pants zipped", abortion would not have to be as much of choice itself.

I bet much of the time they didn't have that choice either.

^What's that even supposed to mean? Besides, it's not just about "keeping it zipped," it's about education. Kids are going to have sex, it happens, teach them how not to get pregnant and there's a better chance that they won't.

It's supposed to mean that girls get raped, no matter how educated they are.

[Coasterkidmwm]

If you want to lower pregnancy rates people need to stop doing crap like teaching an abstinence only view. The sooner people understand that abstinence is the solution to absolutely nothing the sooner million of tax dollars will stop being wasted on garbage like George Bush's abstinence only AIDS prevent programs in Africa.

other than pre-existing sterility, isn't abstinence the only 100% foolproof way to avoid pregnancy?

and whether anyone likes it or not, everyone has a choice to not engage in sexual activity.

Originally posted by GerstlCrazy

It's supposed to mean that girls get raped, no matter how educated they are.

That's what I thought you meant, but I'm sure rape is a reason for abortion a very small percentage of the time.

And dhh, abstinence is the only 100% way to avoid pregnancy, but telling high school age kids that they must abstain from sex "or else" is not the way to go about it. To me the best way to go about it is to teach kids that abstinence is the best idea at their age, but tell them how to be safe if they do decide to have sex.

Most of my comments are in direct response to those in earlier posts that seem to have an attitude that abstinence is a load of crap that will never work. To adapt a partial quote from Coasterkidmwm:

"If you want to lower pregnancy rates people need to stop doing crap like" (his quote) thinking they can have sex without consequence.(my adaptation)

My statements are based on what I believe based on my faith in God and what He says; not specifically about abortion, but what He says about sex (yes I know that is a whole other topic, so there is no need to get into that here). I would never suggest something like "abstinence or else", only that like abortion, abstinence IS a choice...and in my opinion, a very good one.

I am not foolish enough to believe that people will ever completely agree on subjects such as abortion (just one of many I am sure), but just because an opinion is different it should not be treated as less viable than anyone else's.

To boil down my opinions about this subject:

actions have consequences...stop the action and you stop the consequence.

that can apply to a lot of things, not just abortion.

It is what I believe...my opinion...nothing more.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Or you could put your girlfriend on the pill via univeristy insurance and everything is A-OK!

[Turbo]

I agree with Coasterkidmwm

:::after a pregnant pause:::

so.....

even with abstinence being the ONLY 100% effective active choice for birth control, it sounds like you are in favor of all the "action" one can get, and to heck with any consequence? is that a fair question?

No, what he's saying is that although abstinence is the only sure-fire way to not get pregnant, it's extremely naive to believe that simply telling people that will keep them from fooling around. It's been statistically proven, over and over again, that educating people about safe sex is more successful than writing the subject off and leaving them to their imaginations.

First off, there is no naivete involved in any of my opinions. I have been around long enough (45yrs and 2 grown kids) and have had things challenge me and force me to examine things I believe sometimes on a daily basis; so I am not walking into this with blinders on, or for that matter blind to what others believe.

Coasterkid, you seem (to me) to have a very cavalier attitude about this whole thing. You talk of "putting your girlfriend on the pill..." as if you have no responsibility in the situation.

bicoastalkid, I never equated teaching (and I do mean seriously teaching) abstinence with writing off the subject. I believe, that even though culture today does not give much evidence to it, abstinence is the best option out there. But then again, as stated before, those are my beliefs; and if this is indeed an open forum, all opinions are welcome and the only thing all of us can agree on is to agree to disagree. I am not looking to convince anyone; only state what I believe.

As far as statistics are concerned, my Statistical Math professor opened day one of class by telling us that you can make stats say anything you want. For example, regarding abortion, you could ask it several different ways. Such as:

1. Are you pro-abortion or anti-abortion?
2. Are you pro-abortion or pro-life?
3. Are you pro-life or pro-death?

They all essentially ask the same thing, but is one question more accurate/appropriate than the others? It all depends on who is doing the asking, who they are asking, and the results they are trying to prove or disprove.

Do I believe things like that happen on both sides of this argument? YOU BET! There are loudmouth extremists, pundits, and pollsters on both sides, and neither does any of us any good.

Thank you for keeping me thinking.

Believing that abstinence works isn't naive, it's rather obvious that it does work. However, thinking that simply making a strong case for abstinence is going to solve anything on a large scale is naive. A vast majority of teens are going to fool around regardless of whether it's really responsible for them to do, but if they're going to do something seemingly irresponsible isn't it better they at least know how to do it with the minimal amount of risk? The problem with abstinence-focused education isn't that it's wrong, but that it trivializes the subject of sex in a very parent-like "just don't do it" way to an audience who is reaching an age where they become increasingly independent. Also, it focuses on the failure rates of contraceptives just so it can highlight abstinence's absolute results, so when teens got to mess around instead of having "hey, this will reduce our risk a butt-ton" in their mind, they look at is as "these don't work all the time, so what's the point of using one? Let's just do it..."

And I'm saying this as somebody who has actually heard people at school say things like this. It's retarded.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

This site hasn't had a bloody melee of words in a long while so I think I'll create one. Opinions of abortion now!

You got what you wanted.[:p]

I never suggested the trivialization of the subject of sex, nor do I espouse the "just don't do it" school of thought. And "Because I said so" was never effective when my kids were young so why would I believe it could work now? Nor would I imply that anything should be sugar-coated for the kids. If they are old enough to engage in the activity, they are old enough to be hit square between the eyes with the harsh realities of choices they make...all choices...not just this one.

Of course abstinence is going to focus on the failure rate of other methods; if you've got the one guaranteed "sure thing", wouldn't it be obvious that you would promote it above other options? Of course you can promote it all you want, but a person is going to have to WANT to listen, SERIOUSLY consider the facts, and THEN make a decision one way or the other. For me, what I consider naive would be to think I could forcibly make someone change their mind. I can only tell them what I know/believe and let them make up their own mind.

As far as having a sweeping large-scale solution, I think it is pretty safe to say that would never happen. On issues like this, I believe the heart of a person has to be engaged before someone can have any hope of reaching the mind.

I agree that a person has to want to listen in order to be reached, but I also think they're more likely to make a responsible decision if they are taught about all the alternatives in an unbiased fashion. To me, focusing on failure basically negates the point of teaching about contraception in the first place. I think the fact that they are major risk reducers should be stressed, not that they aren't 100% failsafe. The only time I think contraceptive failure should be emphasized is if it's a form that is either myth or just terribly ineffective.

[Coasterkidmwm]

Originally posted by dhh
Coasterkid, you seem (to me) to have a very cavalier attitude about this whole thing. You talk of "putting your girlfriend on the pill..." as if you have no responsibility in the situation.

I have this friend who I'll rename Christy who has been on the pill since age 14 for the whole not wanting a baby thingy. She has had 3 steady boyfriends in that time period and no pregnancies. How is that not effective. No baby, and you get to have sex. Everybody wins.

I know diseases exist and all but still in general I don't see the big issue here. Same no baby results as abstinence.

dhh, I respect your opinion. Being liberal, I do not agree with all of your opinions. But I understand where you are coming from. I have to say, though, that having been in abstinence-only sex education courses for three years, I know for a fact that I am unconvinced of the benefits of abstinence. Yes, it is a fool-proof way of preventing pregnancy, but I know for a fact that kids do not want to remain a virgin for terribly long. Does this make the kid a bad person? Hell no. At least I hope not.

My views on abortion: I am pro-choice, even though I would love to see more people use adoption as a method. Adoption is a great alternative to abortion, but I understand the reason abortion is so frequent - a large percentage of the women who need abortions are in situations that put them into a dead end with no way out other than Women Now. I feel that abstinence is naive and idealistic in the worst way; therefore, I agree with coasterkidmwm. Birth control pills are excellent. You get the same results as abstinence and you get the pleasures of life.

I do wish that evangelical Christians would sometimes look a little bit beyond the Bible and see the light.

To Coasterkidmwm:
Even the pill is NOT 100% effective - very effective yes - 100% effective? no. Anything under 100% will fail at some point. Maybe not for her, or even the next person, but the pill does and will fail. That is not the same effectiveness as abstinence.

To loopier2001:
You say that kids don't want to remain virgins for terribly long. I hope my understanding of that statement is that you don't mean ALL kids? I know quite a few kids that are virgins, and yes I know I have trust what they say, but my trust is built on my trust in the character of the kids in general. I don't know how many people on this forum will snicker at this...but I was a virgin until I was married, and have been celibate since my divorce. Yes these decisions are based on my faith and beliefs, and they are only mine.

As to looking beyond the Bible? If I follow my faith and believe the Bible is one of the ways God communicates with me, then there is no need to look beyond it. I also believe completely that there are evangelical wackos that would try to ram what they call their "doctrine" down other people's throat, but I do believe I can freely speak about what is in/on my heart and mind. Besides I don't even own a 90lb King James Bible (yes, that was joke - I hope you laughed). And I do agree with you that adoption is a great option. It's not exactly birth control, but it is a very good option for afterwards.

Again to both of you, I know that we generally have different views on this subject, and will continue to do so. Agreeing to disagree is never a problem in my eyes.

and finally...

To Gav-:
I don't think the "bloody melee" ever happened. For that, I would need to get my twin brother the "wacko evangelical" involved in this discussion, and unfortunately he refuses to learn anything further than rudimentary computer skills. just the idea of an online forum would cause him to short circuit.

(Let's REALLY tick some people off now ...)

To me, it's really simple -- There are consequences to your actions, and people need to take responsibility for their own actions. If you speed, you may get a ticket, you may get in a wreck, or it may cost you or someone else their life. But it's YOUR DECISION whether to drive responsibly or not, and you reap the consequences of your actions.

If you have sex, you may get an STD, or you may even get pregnant. If you do, it's your own fault. If you can't handle the responsibility of a child, then you're not mature enough (regardless of how old you are) to be fooling around with sex. Don't try to get out of your problem with an abortion. It's not a quick fix. Honestly, it'll just introduce a whole new array of problems, physically and emotionally. I don't know this first-hand, but I surely do second-hand.

Carrying a baby for nine months and giving birth to it is hard on the body and on your emotions, but a child is a blessing. If you can't handle raising a child, then let this child be a blessing to someone else. I know dozens of people who cannot have children and have chosen to adopt (and some who CAN have children that have adopted as well.)

Granted, this doesn't take into account rape victims. They're not responsible for what happens to them. But those are in the extreme minority of abortion cases. (And studies suggest that most rape victims don't want abortions anyway. One link on it is http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V2/n1/RAPESUM.htm)

[Coasterkidmwm]

DHH it isn't 100% effective because if you're dumb you forget to take it one day and that throws everything out of whack. She ain't, therefore no problem.

that's some text you got yourself there rcqeek, but i think that is a good arguement, because instead of everyone saying "well my religion says this and that's what you should do" or "contraception isn't talked about in a good way enough" that page is balanced and has a look at both sides. i am in fact a virgin, and do not intend to lose that until i am sure that i could handle the financial, emotional and physical problems of having a baby, and i would make sure that my girlfriend and i were both ready, and that is the choice i have made, i may not follow it but that is my choice, and like that many people have the choice to do it the way they want.

rape victims are a different case, i mean having an abortion or not with that burden is simply the tip of the iceberg, unless you are the victim of rape you have no idea the stresses that are put on you.

wooh, well my b***h is over, now one more point, i still think that the only surefire way to not get pregnant is to either not have sex or do it anal or oral [:p]

and the point on masturbation is true, most of the guys on this site must be true serial killers.