Catholicism

Well, for a very long time I have been interested in the meat behind the Catholic faith. To me, a very large quantity of it seems very off and the general idea of the Catholic faith seems to miss the point greatly.

So, for those who have training/knowledge of this religion, chime in. More of less Id like a discussion of WHAT it is with competing views and not a flame session. Considering I want to gather information (and no, im not relying on this site solely!) and I know a few of you are noted in being raised or schooled in this, Id like to hear your sides to some questions I have.

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Mary. Why is she so important. I know she gave birth to the Son of God, but, Jesus even is noted at calling her "woman" which, in the context of the day was more or less to refer to her as a woman and not as His mother. Elsewhere she isnt prominantly noted and has a small role (other than birth) in the actual ministry of Jesus.

I find her "holier than thou" stature almost sacreligious. She is prayed too as if she has a God-like power and treated nearly as an angel. But she was human, like everyone else! She was only the vessel for God to bring a Son to Earth. No where is she said to be a saint, angel, taken to heaven, etc.

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Saints

There is prayer after prayer to different saints. Saints that apparently you pray too if youve lost something, they help you find it. Or all these people who were saints and now hold positions in heaven to be prayed too.

This also seems very - contradictory. Its outlined several times there is One God, One way, etc. Why pray to a saint, when I can pray directly to God? Why create all these paths? Wasnt Jesus' purpose to bridge the gap between God and us? Wasnt He the Mediator?

Which leads me to confessional. While I agree that its GOOD to have people of accountability and also GOOD to confess your sins, why has the Catholic church reduced it simply to the priest? Again, this seems to buck with the idea that you truely need to confess your sins to God first and foremost. I have never seen how a priest can - because I confess to him - make me holy. God does that, a priest doesnt! No human makes me holy.

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Graven images

This is throughout all religions but I think Catholism has a key part (for christianity) in getting it all started again. Look at how heavily image based the Catholic church is. There are statues, pictures, paintings, stained glass and artwork everywhere depicting Jesus, Mary and other saints. While I dont think its a sin to have them, I think they certainly lend themselves to becoming an idol of worship instead of Jesus/God Himself. I think this is the very reason when the Israelites took over a city God would command them to smash all idols and images so they could not infect the population. Now, that was in regards to a religion NOT like theirs, however, I think having statues of Jesus and Mary all over really creates idols for people to latch onto. We are physical, image oriented peoples. This God knows. Hence why we are asked not to have other graven images or idols simply because we tend to gravitate towards them and worship those instead.

I would argue that the Catholic traditions of old started this. I doubt the first and early christians did this and it wasnt until the bad seeds broke from the early Church and started their own versions of Christianity.

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So I guess in all of this, answer me why those (to start with) topics are SO integrated with the Catholic religion. Why do saints hold an almost God-like status when as I pointed, the Bible states that there is only one God to look too and worship? Why does Mary hold such a high, high place in heaven when even by God she is looked upon as only the carrier of His son, NOTHING more or less? Why must I confess my sins to human and then what authority does he have that he can forgive my sins? Why does the bible warn again and again about idols and imagery (even when it pertains to Him) and yet the Catholic religion inundated with it?


Questions from a mind that has a hard time wrapping itself around a religion thats based off basically the same Book I read but doesnt seem to follow it at all...

I agree on you, and to be honest I am very interested in the reason behind most of the Catholic ideas. I am a Protestant myself and believe things different from the Catholic church. For example, how is it possible to be forgiven from something bad you did by just telling a priest what you did and ask him (not God) for mercy???

Btw, as for idols, images etc. I know and understand that virtually every religion is full of it! I cannot STAND the christian CRAP thats sold everywhere. Tons of stupid trinkets and stupid garbage for people to waste their money on. Want a single ring or necklace? Cool, no big deal. When your car has 100 decals, your house is inundated with little statues and other things it kinda raises the question as to where your faith really is...

Just so were clear, Im talking about the beginnings, not right now. Mainly because the oldest pieces of artwork and statues date quite far back and were made/belong to catholic churches.

[gouldy]

this has been going for more than 24.2 seconds Real.

I know, Im pretty amazed thus far! ;)

Originally posted by Rolling Coaster

I agree on you, and to be honest I am very interested in the reason behind most of the Catholic ideas. I am a Protestant myself and believe things different from the Catholic church. For example, how is it possible to be forgiven from something bad you did by just telling a priest what you did and ask him (not God) for mercy???

It's a real shame you call yourself a Protestant when you're only 15 years old. You're too young to 'be' anything.. at least I doubt you've seen and understood enough to make that decision for your own, instead of having your parents tell you what you are.

Nah, I think at 15 you can understand the basis for your beliefs. You dont have to have seen, read or done everything to then make a choice. If that were the case, no one in the world would be qualified to make any choice!

I think its right around that age you can start to make that choice for yourself. Whether or not it was the choice of the child or family, thats up to them. And really, you raise your children how you would like them grow up but its still their choice! If they choose to follow you or not should not matter. It was a CHOICE they made.

Anyways, any thoughts on this stuff?

I agree about the idolatry claim. Actually, if you look it up, notice that the Catholic church altered the true Ten Commandments from Exodus 20 into the "Catholic Ten Commandments," which removed the law about not bowing to idols, and split the tenth commandment on coveting into two pieces to make up for it.

Although I'm not sure if I agree with them or not, I went to a seminar this past summer that claims that when the Catholic church started back in the 400's, they did a ton of things to get pagans to follow them, such as switching the Sabbath from the seventh day, Saturday, to the day the pagans worshiped the sun, Sunday. They brought in statues so that the pagans who were used to bowing before idols to worship would feel more comfortable.

All the trinkets that I see, and the practice of confession to priests, those are definitely the result of greed. No question. Plain and simple, the church was made up of corrupt leaders in the middle ages, who only wanted to control everyone, and accumulate wealth. By confessing to priests rather than directly to God, the church gained absolute power over that person because they had to go through the church if they wanted to be saved. Yes, a corrupt notion indeed. The middle-age church also persecuted non-believers, started selling indulgences and rosaries and the like to make money, and wouldn't even let people own their own bibles so that they could preach whatever they wanted. The corruption is over, but the traditions have remained.

Anyway, that's what I've heard, and my own take on it. This doesn't mean I think Catholics have any less of a part in the Kingdom of God, because most of the people involved don't even know that what they are doing is non-Biblical. And at the core of Christianity is the notion that all who come in the name of Jesus and seek to do the will of God will inherit eternal life. So although I personally know that they are doing un-Biblical things, and I will not do them myself as such, I'm not going to persecute them for it. If they are doing what they are doing in the name of the Lord, and that is how they get close to God, who am I to tell them that their way of getting close to God is wrong?

[Coasterkidmwm]

I was raised Catholic and it's the sect of Christianity I'm most familiar with.

From what I remember in religion class Mary is the only person to have never sinned besides Jesus and that's why she was chosen as God's surprise rape victim or whatever fancy way they have of saying that she had a kid without getting boned without her knowledge.

As far as confession goes, the approach they have I have no explanation for aside from an INTERPRETATION that it's a tool to get you to go to church.

As far as saints go, i don't really have an answer for their status aside from that they just made that up for the hell of it. I DO know that if you go to some basilicas (churches that are grandiose enough for the Pope to preach in) they may have rooms with relics that are dedicated to the saints and may have a pice of hair from the saint or something in them surrounded by a crapton of diamonds and stuff. It all basicly looks like rapper bling but it's all real instead of cubic zirconium and they use rubies and emeralds and stuff.

As far as Catholicism goes my family as a whole and primarily my mother is fed up with the religion in general. My mother's side of the family is very religious and has several aunts that were nuns on her side of the family. My mother talks a ton about how her aunt on her deathbed was ranting off all of these moneymaking scams to my mother while she was "delirious from the medicine". The above is why I go out of my way to avoid religious charities because a great deal of them to this days are found to be gigantic elelaborate scams. When the priests starting getting convicted of raping kids that's when the crap really hit the fan. Now my mother has gone from deeply religious to only going to church on Christmas and Easter. This deathbed scenario is where my belief that the christian children's funds etc are gigantic scams. I figure a nun would know.

The religion is very ritual based, and the obvious "why am I doing this?" questions are what turned me off to the whole thing at a very early age. The idea of eating people (during mass the wine is LITERALLY supposed to be blood and the bread is supposed to be skin, not a symbol of it, literally the blood and skin), the fact that nothing happens to the bread and wine, really started the questioning process at an early age.

Although I know that Christians were persecuted in Holocaust, the whole story is mainly perpetuated from the Jewish standpoint which mostly focuses the plight of the Jews, the primary target of the event. The Gypsies were by far the most killed in terms of proportion because they were easiest to find because hiding was difficult for them and the darker skin made them an easier target. I am forgetting the title, but there is a rather alarming book I've read that is a compilation of concentration guard diaries that documents them all being borderline suicidal and mentally unwell. They were all absolutely terrified of the gypsy section at Auschwitz because it was so disease ridden and just the hellhole of the hellhole. The whole gypsy population ended up being killed in one fell swoop and the gypsy camp section was burned to the ground and taken as a total loss.

The Pope at the time did essentially nothing aside from charging money to get people out, and there is video footage of bishops and cardinals having dinner banquets with Nazis (History Channel to thank for that one). I wouldn't exactly call it a "bad leader", I'd call it a bad religion as a whole with a few good eggs caught up in the mess that tried to help.

I'm aware that Catholicism is a sect just like the Westboro Baptist Sisterf**kers are a sect, however I choose not associate myself Christianity at all because there is lots of blood on the hands of that religious across the whole spectrum although it's in more sects than others.

I see the baptist megachurch leaders who drive Rolls Royce's as the modern day "new" equivilent of the old Catholic tryannical tards.

Originally posted by ExTraxYz

Originally posted by Rolling Coaster

I agree on you, and to be honest I am very interested in the reason behind most of the Catholic ideas. I am a Protestant myself and believe things different from the Catholic church. For example, how is it possible to be forgiven from something bad you did by just telling a priest what you did and ask him (not God) for mercy???

It's a real shame you call yourself a Protestant when you're only 15 years old. You're too young to 'be' anything.. at least I doubt you've seen and understood enough to make that decision for your own, instead of having your parents tell you what you are.

I do agree on you that my religious choice has been strongly influenced by my parents, but I don't think i can't make that decicion on my own. If I am more attracted to the buddhism, I would have been a buddhist. But I want to believe in God, in a way that looks mostly like the Reformed Protestantic church. Eventhough I believe things that most of the elderly people disagree with me (in the same church). Protestant is just what comes closest to my believe.

Ok, thanks for the info CKW.

As for Mary, I have been reading all morning (apart from a 2 hour class) and fail to come up with any material that she was sinless HOWEVER, thats the EXACT impression I get. My girlfriend went to a catholic school because of some rather unfortunate circumstances and has some knowledge of this but didnt speak of it either.

Im still searching because its intriguing. Even if you take the Holy Trinity and say she DID give birth to God (since Jesus always was and is God) I still dont see how it makes her even a remote second to God. Being a virgin didnt make her blameless unless the word virgin has another meaning that being virgin of sin.

But even the Catholic scripture has to point out that Jesus was the only blameless and sinless man to walk the Earth. Thus counting her out. Unless they have switched around a few key parts of the New Testament, Christ was the only one to have walked the Earth without sin.

We know she was a Jew and thus followed Jewish customs and laws. During her pregnancy and after she followed those. Which begs the question, if you were without sin, why would you need to follow the rituals of cleansing?

Mary even aknowledges Jesus as "my Saviour" thus admiting her need of one. Why? Because she was a sinner! Theres no where to support she was without sin.

The only way to come to that conclusion is to use the terminology of the word virgin and apply it to mean virgin to sin, not just sexual intercourse.

Originally posted by Coasterkidmwm

From what I remember in religion class Mary is the only person to have never sinned besides Jesus and that's why she was chosen as God's surprise rape victim

[lol][lol]

The whole catholic religion is very corrupt in my opinion and I believe all organized religion is rather stupid. I don't need someone telling me exactly what I believe and don't believe. First off catholics believe god has mercy for ALL living things loves them all and forgives all people. First off we have absolutely NO proof that he forgives, loves or exists. SO where are we getting this from? The bible? Which may or may not be true, tells us stories about God etc. BUT then again most of it is all "symbolic" so are we supposed to pick and choose what is real in there?.. Second god forgives and loves all but if your not baptized or "bathed in the holy waters" you'll go to hell. Okay so does he forgive and love all or not? Humans have a tendency to try to fill in the blanks when we don't know something. How did the world begin? We don't know so in our perfectly unperfect human nature, we stick god in there so we feel at peace "knowing" that he made it. Do e have any proof of this other than the biased Catholic bible? NO. We have hundreds of religions in the world, yet each person who is believes in each of those religions says "my god is the real god, all the others are fake". NO ONE KNOWS. No one can quote the bible to determine w how the earth began etc, because its biased from only the catholic perspective. I go to a catholic school and get fed this BS everyday, and the more I think about it, religion is a tool to control people. Do I really feel god when I pray to him? NO. Do I feel I have a relationship with him? Not really. People may tell me , your so closed minded, open your eyes, seeing isn't always believing, you have to believe that god is listening. My religion teacher once told me part of the catholic faith is radical inclusiveness which means to include everyone the poor the blind etc. BUT, she also said DO NOT MARRY A NON BELIEVER. Religion is contradictory like that. And to cover up the mistakes they say thinking against your religion is a sin. I used to be afraid to think against my religion and it wasn't a great way to grow up. I feel good now that I know organized religion isn't holding me back. I know there may be a god, a creator, a being watching over us. But who's to say that my religion is right? No one can, its about free will, and the church doesn't believe you can believe what you want. I could go on and on and on but I will stop here. This is just my opinion though believe what you want.

^Some know because of personal experiences, others don't because they don't have those kinds of experiences. That's all I will say, and I'm sorry you have such a harsh opinion on the matter!

I don't have a harsh opinion Lol sorry if it sounded like that, but since religion class this year I've realized how silly the religion is. I just get a bit worked up trying to get my thoughts down into text so thats probably why it seems as though I have such a harsh opinion. I do believe there is a God but I don't need people to tell me what I believe.

See, this is what happens when a religion based on a personal relationship with God gets turned into nothing more than tradition. It just becomes idle repetition that alienates people because they are forced to go through the motions for the sake of their family even if they don't really believe, or even hate what is going on.

How many times is this now that I've been talking with an atheist about Christianity, only to have them tell me that they were raised Catholic and forced to go through the motions as kids but never saw God there, and stopped believing because they couldn't stand all of the idle tradition in it, and how religion was forced on them? That seems to be the case so many times it's ridiculous.

And actually, that could easily have been me. My mom is Catholic, and I went to Christian kids' groups, but never really understood any of it. I hated church service as a kid because it was always so boring and stagnant. The same thing week after week. Fortunately, when I told her that I didn't like it, she allowed me to say "no" and stop going to church. I went my own way, and went the route of agnosticism. My life gradually fell apart. Grades dropped, I started hating myself and my life, and I acted like a spoiled brat all the time. Then finally in my mid-teens, my best friend invited me to his church youth group, and the people there were actually open and loving, and were reaching out. I felt God's love in there, and I decided to give it a try. This time it was real. It wasn't just something I had to do on Sunday, it was a lovely whole-life transformation that has been working itself on me ever since. And here I am, preaching the Word on internet message boards, and recently becoming a double-major in religion. Who'dve thunk it?

Cooliocody12, this is a thread about what Catholocism is about... not about how stupid YOU think a religion is.

I am Protestant. I was confirmed into my Presbyterian church in 8th grade. I went to a Lutheran school for my K5-8th grade education. I personally am against so many views of a lot of denominations. Catholicism has its faults by having a human appointed by humans lead a church because God says so. Calvinism's Predestination theory makes it seem like God only wants a few people out of the whole world to be saved and everyone else can just suffer.

I seriously am sick of so many people having biased/religious views on worldy matter (such as gay marriage). The bible says it is morally wrong for a man to lie with a man, but there is a split between that.

Some Christians say that it is wrong for a man who is married to a woman to lie with other men, never that men who see themselves as gay lie with other men.

Christianity is a religion that has always been criticized, and countless people have died because of it. Wars fought because you weren't Catholic. Wars fought because you were Jewish or Muslim. Even wars fought because you were Christian.

I say, leave it to God alone to decide what's right, not humans that say what God says should be right...

Real, I was raised a Catholic before I found the truth of salvation at the age of 21 and to this date I still cannot explain why certain things were done the way they were. And that is the complete and honest truth.

Religion in general is just messed up. Alot of Christians and Catholics say that Scientology is stupid... But a talking snake that gives people poison apples? a flaming bush that speaks? totally believable... lol. In my opinion, hope and faith are a great thing to have, but have hope and faith in something that has physical proof. (besides books that were written by our untrustworthy friend "Man".) Now, please argue and get pissed, I want to savor this...

Wait...what talking snake that gave a person a poison apple?

the one in the bible... Not sure about the apple part, but i know there was a talking snake woven somewhere into Christianities craziness.

[jayman]

did you hear about the new low fat communion wafers the vatican is advertising? .. its called "i cant believe its not JESUS "

^ hahahaha

Originally posted by griffonluv

Cooliocody12, this is a thread about what Catholocism is about... not about how stupid YOU think a religion is.

I was giving my opinion. Btw this is a thread about Catholicism not about how you're angered someone expressed their opinion...